Circumstances that explained those un-commanded discharges.. It nicely describes what has to happen in a striker-fired P320 for an un-commanded discharge to happen as the plaintiffs have claimed. The SIG will be the shortest military contract for guns in history. U.S. lawsuits Second, every gun maker has made lemons in the past. He wanted TTAG to convey that hes pro-Second Amendment. Aug 25, 2021 pluong91 said: Hello all users that plan on making a P320 Accidental Discharge Threads -We love our P320's and have done the research when these articles and lawsuits came out, we don't need you to tell us, we have done our due diligence. This is what happens when you go with the lowest bidder. I mean hey, yelling about firearms preferences online is no more productive than discussing nerdy Star Trek stuff, is it? Excellent work. Search Texas Statutes. He was told to shoot two rounds. Ditto; that's what i was getting at earlier Bear007 Custom Aug 25, 2021 #18 The new Tauruses have a good rep, far better then the P320 or P365. You did get to sit and watch it with him, which leads to a serious question. Thats why the US Marines have Sigs. The best take on this subject is by the author himself: this is about slime lawyers looking to build a national narrative and get a few wins in, so they can more easily get the next win and the next one, the next one and so on. One, the energy necessary to lift the striker-securing safety plunger may be insufficient due to a too-weak spring, or a too-light plunger, or some other design flaw, to reliably engage the plunger where it belongs. SIG Sauer, a German weapons maker with its U.S. headquarters in Newington, N.H., issued a statement Friday in response to a CBC News report earlier this week that revealed the Nov. 5, 2020, incident and the fact the weapon, the SIG P320, had been withdrawn from service while the military conducts an investigation. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/dea-agent-lee-paige-still-wont-go-away/. Sig Sauer's headquarters are located in New Hampshire at Pease International Tradeport. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Yes, but that did not mean the machine would be able to go on being marketed like that. Clients such as law enforcement officers whose negligent discharges could result in their being disciplined or fired unless it can be proven that the gun was at fault. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. LEO handguns get into struggles, they get laid and rolled on, they get smacked into vehicles/doorways, they get dropped, they get drawn and holstered way more often than their civilian counterparts. And they would not have done that for no reason at all. who sells them? This reminds me of when Gretchen Carlson sued Fox News for sexual harassment and she got 20 million dollars. Nope. If these same folks were around in the 80s and got their way, no one today would know what a Glock was. Have you ever put a handgun down with your palm in front of the muzzle? Picard if Im limited to NCC-1701. At rest, cocked, it may very well have enough oomph to set some primers off. If its not legal momentum, it would have to be some other mechanism of failure.. I have almost a hatred for Glocks but the one thing that they are is reliable. As a striker-fired pistol, the P320 is "under constant pressure to fire," Bagnell said. Canadian soldier wounded by accidental discharge used wrong holster: SIG Sauer Sig Sauer P220 Super Match. I lost $150 dumping that gun and Sig instead of acknowledging that it had a problem and calling it a recall, denied all and everything and called it a voluntary upgrade., At my LGS a P320 just went off when one of the guys put it the counter when he set up a target. They didnt see a problem at all and in fact, saw it as an upgrade over Glock. Sounds like most of these cases were off-body carry. ALL OF THEM. Watching all these Glock fan boys drool over these lawsuits in their tribal brand-lust is like watching the talking heads on CNN announcing Trump lost the 2020 election. I know there are those who will vehemently disagree with me, and even disparage me but I have been following this issue from early on, BUT I recall CLEARLY that there have been dozens and dozens of discharges that could not be attributed to operator error and people experiencing these uncommanded discharges both before AND after getting the trigger upgrade. Ill go so far as to say the first batch of Sig P320s did nothing wrong. Two, the plunger may have a propensity to remain partially raised, or staged, instead of returning fully to its secure position, lessening the energy necessary to move it and thus allowing less effort to do so. TTAG talked to SIG Sauer about the P320 suits and the ABC reports. It offers the quality and reliability of Sig Sauer, with a tried and true striker system and ingenious features that make it a novel gun. (c) If conduct constituting an offense under this section also constitutes an offense under another . Being highly trained doesnt eliminate stupidity. Over the top, hammy and with incredible choleric energy, but as he once said, when you trying to seriously sell a scene that has space ship with obvious carboard walls, christmas lights and a guy in a rubber gorilla suit with a plastic horn on its head, if you play it lowkey youre dead the audience is gonna focus on how cheesy it all is. I wish nothing bad on anyone carrying regardless of brand. Golly didnt Sig catch he!! Alec Baldwin fatally shot a cinematographer and injured a director with a prop gun on the set of the film "Rust" and the distraught actor repeatedly asked afterwards why he . Let us look at the history of other consumer products. CBC News reached out to Sig Sauer and its Canadian distributor, M.D. Carrying a handgun in a purse, particularly one that isnt designed specifically to carry a firearm, is problematic at best. Dont quote the four rules of safety in your article when all the hotness in the gun world is appendix carry pointing something at an extremity and the photos you use showing front slide serrationsputting your hands fingers near the business end of the barrel, because press checks from the front is the way all the cool operator guys do it. Neither argument is relevant or very intelligent and certainly not useful. Then after just three years without telling anyone they stopped all production including extra parts. The heads up testing was immediately finished the Sig was the winner. These lawsuits arent about Sig making a defective weapon, theyre about lawyers building a nationwide consensus in civil trial that makes it easier (and more lucrative) to soak gunmakers. He had to be reprimanded by the range officer twice for unsafe handling of his pistol. A too light 1911 as some use in competition or God Forbid for carry- could jump the sear if dropped. Sig P320 is just one of many pistols with Safety related. The modular SIG P320 is among the most widely-owned handguns on the planet. 1.A rush to market, and as usual the blind greed of the gun companies who no longer test pistols before marketing them think it is cheaper (so the idiots think) to let the public test them. Quit blaming cops or the military, these guns have a serious problem. It was one of the first ones and was sent back as a voluntary upgrade. And many departments across the country have had to lower their standards for passing qualifications just to be able to hire on and keep officers. Attorney Bagnell held up the law enforcement officers he represents as examples of people who are highly trained in carrying and using firearms. If you want to find the lowest form of life on the planet interview any C.E.O. The second, longer version of the ABC story again included comments from Joshua Harrison, the consultant ABC hired to independently assess the P320. The Government mandated it to be made more safe to use and was. A holstered base P320 allegedly had a mysterious accidental discharge without pulling the trigger. abprototype.com can add the manual safety as well as add the notches in the grip frame. Bagnell said he thinks the discharges are due to both design and manufacturing flaws on SIGs part. SIG ultimately settled that lawsuit. They habitually use their customers as the product testers by selling what are essentially prototypes while quietly implementing rolling revisions. People who had problems have been replacing them with Lightning Strike SS ones. For the moron Neanderthals of the Far Right who will scream its the operators fault and we do not give a shit about marketing more safer designed weapons, if such idiotic polices were followed for other consumer goods today we would not have safety glass, anti-lock breaks, back up safeties, child proof medicine caps and chemical bottles, back up cameras, kick back muzzles on chain saws and the list goes on and on. And the idea some random comment section P320 hater thinks theyre smarter & more knowledgeable than the Army, Navy, Airforce, Coast Guard and Marine Corp combined regarding military pistol selection is just freaking laughable! Its difficult to believe thats a coincidence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-ZZ6pynGLM His annual qualification consisted of shooting 32 rounds. Theyve also been adopted as duty guns by law enforcement agencies across the country. The Glocks lack of a manual safety has caused untold thousands of needless cripplings and death. It has an unsafe takedown procedure that requires you to pull the trigger to get the slide off. LOL! These suits allege that their ultra-popular P320 pistol can fire without the trigger being pulled. . Still waiting. Im more of a DS9 guy. Sig fanboys are almost as bad as Glock fanboys. But I hope Sig fights it until the bitterest of ends. Then theres the fact that the branches of the military have put the P320 design through their own batteries of testing and found it duty worthy. What I can say is that article reads like a hit piece on the individuals who may or may not of made mistakes with their firearms from someone who worships at the alter of sig. So I will just continue to carry Mexican style with my striker fired polymer wonder nine from a company that may or may not be SIG. So it never had a history of a potential valid claim for ambulance chasers to work off of. The use of a modified [SIG] P226 holster created an unsafe condition by allowing a foreign object to enter the holster, causing the unintended discharge.. The weapon had a history of going off unexpectedly when it was dropped at a certain angle. The SIG P320 has been the subject of numerous lawsuits, including one class action case, in the U.S. over injuries sustained because of accidental discharges. Post again when you buy a real gun that you can defend yourself with. Note that Harrisons comment about these claims possibly being the result of legal momentum were edited out of the longer Nightline version of the report. Im not even sure I would do that with my 92 or something else that can be both decocked and locked. If it was so bad, why did the US Marines, who had the Glock, drop it in favor of the carry sized P320, the M18? Harrison responded, No, I dont think the upgraded version should be recalled, in fact I think the previous version should be recalled so that everyone has the upgraded version.. And people have a way of looking for ways to deflect blame for those discharges, especially when they stand to lose their job as a result. There were a lot of changes. How many times did Shatner actually watch it? The problem was strikers. The Glock fails on both counts. Everyone remember the video of the DEA agent shooting himself while explaining that he was highly qualified to carry a gun? I own Serpa holsters in multiple configurations (1911, Beretta 96, H&K, Springfield, etc) for most of the time theyve been around and I NEVER had an ND. They cant even make claim to doing a twice a year qual. Oh, if you another thread reader asking Wheres the Sig/Glock bashing? "It has a clear capacity to fire without the trigger being pulled under certain conditions," said Hilton's lawyer, Jeffrey Bagnell. Too expensive to use their customers as beta testers. The incidents occur outside the forbidden zone, as we disarm before we enter so we stay in assiduous compliance with their nonsensical requirement. So, unlike the Serpa holster debate, Im a believer that there is more going on than meets the eye with the P320 and is exactly why I refrained from buying one, why I still wont own one, and why I steer people away from it. Either the gun is defective or its not. I carry one in my front pocket routinely. Just 3 days ago, a Florida Corrections recruit killed herself by a negligent discharge during firearms training. The trigger bar has to push up on it, for it to release. This is this same company that couldnt build their own freaking rifles after multiple attempts (Sig SG550 series) when that rifle had been made in Switzerland for years without issue. His haste to avoid the embarrassment of his gun being seen on the floor turned the incident from a wardrobe malfunction (accidental exposure of a concealed weapon, probably just a reprimand from the OPR) into a negligent discharge (the gun being fired led to him personally getting fired!). Not much detail is provided in any of those other claimed incidents, but a few stand out. Posts: 21156 | Registered: November 05, 2003. Ron Cohen ruined Kimber and now hes doing the same to SIG. Mechanical engagement of sear to striker not deep enough (wanted lighter, smoother trigger pull without giving it any hand workmanship required with the deep notch much safer classic systems made since 1900) Result another big fail. Effectively: you must be this dumb to get this job. Ive seen similar situations at our Municipal range. You couldnt ask questions. The Hide Armory. Had a buddy, years ago, that was a deputy for Orange County in California. The thing is, youd probably need to generate many Gs of force in both directions simultaneously. The incident with the P320 - a contender for a major Canadian Armed Forces procurement of thousands of pistols and holsters that has a Aug. 3 deadline for industry proposals - occurred at JTF-2's Dwyer Hill training range just west of Ottawa. To give you an example of early self-propelled lawn mowers if you lost your grip on the handles the mower would not shut off and it would take off on its own right down the street all by itself. Just because someone shoots hyper-unrealistic 3 gun competition, subscribes to Recoil magazine and routinely watches their fave rave YouTube cult of personality channel shill for the latest company that paid him off doesnt make them a [emailprotected]$$. Using an example from the first prong, we legitimately fault the user who shot himself in the palm, rightfully asking why in the WORLD his palm was in front of the muzzle when he set the gun down. That focus drifts. He would have been booted after the first time, but being a cop comes with some special privileges. The pistol is popular with commercial gun owners and law enforcement south of the border. ), and the gun fell out of his pocket. It doesnt matter whether SIG is at fault or not. Fourth, no one takes Taurus seriously. Everyone remembers the problems the Beretta M9 had, but it got sorted and they went on to serve over 30 years. Pity that some of the most common reactions fall into two over simplistic categories: 1. Trust a P365 with your life. Back in 2017, SIG instituted a voluntary upgrade program to replace the original production triggers with new enhanced triggers designed to fix the issue that we and others observed when the pistols were dropped onto hard surfaces. RKC, the first time someone presented me with a 1911 whose trigger rivaled my Pythons single action, I started wondering about that. Not only is it now the designated sidearm of all branches of the U.S. military, there are over a million of them in civilian hands. Oct 20, 2022 #36 ; vh20 said: . Profits over reliability and you end up with junk. My dad owned one and that is exactly what happened one time when he was using it. Great job, this threat needed some levity! Hilton's $15 million lawsuit said, "there have been 54 reported uncommanded discharges of the P320," meaning the gun went off by itself, over the last five years in 22 states and Washington, D.C. Sig Sauer did not respond to ABC News' request for comment. It seems safe to assume that while SIG is coming up fast on the outside, GLOCK is still most likely the reigning champ in terms of the firearms most often carried by law enforcement and other government agencies. I have been purchasing and using Sig firearms exclusively for over 40 years. I have never had to have one serviced or replaced. Wheee!!. Who function tests their firearm 1) with a round in the chamber, and 2) when its pointed at an extremity? Slowly people are realizing they arent the only ones having issues. Canadian soldier. I lost $200 on a gun that had less then 1000 rounds through it but I could care. At this point I would have to say that Taurus is a better handgun. That show with no Shatner-Kirk and only a Nimoy-Spock wouldnt have gotten past the first season. When he opened the drawer the hinges pulled the Charters trigger. Police officers (maybe) do an annual qualification and thats it. He said hes a gun owner and a concealed carry permit holder. While this incident occurred months ago, this erroneous media report is driven by multiple sources, including our competitors, and coincides with the imminent release of other Canadian military and law enforcement tenders, indicating the timing of its release is an attempt to improperly influence the procurements, the statement said. According to Section 22.05 of the Texas Penal Code, engaging in deadly conduct with a firearm is considered a felony of the third degree. . never got into the P320 It is to me a Range gun not a carry gun. So the tally goes against the surrounding area, not against the gun free zone. L. LRRifleman . (unless theyre SWAT or something). The lawsuit, filed Wednesday on behalf of . With the 320, the striker is in full-cock position, and held there through the operation of the trigger sear and the positive striker-blocking safety. This leads me to conclude that the problem is not the gear but the moron using it. Im reading about a moron who wraps a loaded firearm in a cloth and stuff it in a gym bag, and other dumb behavior that tells me the weapon isnt the problem but the user. The claimed mode of failure was that the tab on the drop safety that interferes with the striker movement had been sheered off and stopped being a drop safety. Then Weve got to go 9mm Nato. And hasnt been nothing but looking for the holy grail since. Well I jumped in bed with ma and pa , told them that the devil was in Arkansas. Too much MIM in that crap SIG, the old ones were great. The company didnt want to comment on any specific pending litigation for obvious reasons. It upgraded its P320 pistols in October 2018, before the middle school incident, spokeswoman Amanda. I know off body carry is a recipe for disaster. The guide rod is cheap and breaks, it has rotten front sights! converted to the Glock denomination, but are now screaming that the P320 is Too new, not worked out! LOL! The list is long proving gun manufactures were well aware of this problem now for 121 years yet they abandoned this when the Glock infested the gun market. These cops seem pretty dang stupid if they put loaded guns in gym bags and purses with other stuff and carry them around, especially a gun that lacks manual safeties. You simply may not PREFER one make to another, or may simply dislike another make, but were to the point in semi-auto pistol production history where amongst the big brands, the only real distinctions are preference. I was tempted to buy one at one time but no more. Combine this with the complacency that comes with handling a firearm over-and-over again as you holster and unholster a firearm throughout the day, its not surprising that many of these officers are saying it just went off as a negligent discharge can cost them their job if it lead to serious injury or property damage. The settlement requires the gunmaker to reimburse owners of . I used to laugh at his bragging about how skilled he was with a weapon.. Its not credible to claim that people with this amount of training, this amount of skill are all shooting themselves.. He likens it to a bow-and-arrow, pulled taut. Holding the striker fully cocked with nothing to block it if the sear fails is questionable at best. In the former case, you would need upward movement coming to a sudden stop to bump up the drop safety at the same time you imparted rearward momentum to the gun to try and move the striker. And yes, if I pulled some of those stunts, Id have my membership revoked. If this were a car, a phone, a refrigerator, it would have been recalled long ago.
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